Blog for Choice

Women bloggers from the USA have issued a call inviting bloggers worldwide to mark today, January 22, 2007, as a day to blog for choice. Tell us and your readers, they say, why you’re pro-choice.

coathangerFor me, that’s an easy job. I am pro-choice because I believe reproductive freedom is a human right. If women are to ever be equal participants at all levels of society, then the freedom to reproduce at a time of her choosing, or not at all, is entirely up to the individual woman, and not her husband, her family, her government, her doctor, her church, her god(dess).

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128 thoughts on “Blog for Choice

  1. Good grief! What an overly exaggerated response, dear troll.

    The fetal stage of cellular development does not even begin until close to the second trimester. It’s an embryo, not yet even a fetus. And the procedure to remove an embryo from a woman’s body is a medical one and yes, it is a woman’s right and hers alone to choose.

  2. The fetal stage of development begins at 6 weeks past conception. The second trimester begins at 12 weeks. Your statement on fetal development is scientifically incorrect, as much of the discussion around the fetus in pro-abortion circles.

    The reason that abortion is the woman’s choice alone is that the unborn child is discriminated against. “Choice” is discriminatory against the unborn child.

    Abortions happen to fetuses all the time. Surgical abortions can only be performed at 4 weeks past conception. At 6 weeks, the embryo becomes a fetus. That means, a large number of abortions are performed on fetuses, including hundreds of late-term abortions, abortions that are incredibly painful, and often for no better a reason than a woman was in denial about her pregnancy, or because the child has a disease or a disability.

    No individual’s autonomy, equality or freedom is worth killing another human being.

    The pro-choicers never seem to address that argument. It all basically comes down to feminist supremacy– that because a woman is stronger than the fetus, she gets to kill him if she so chooses.

  3. Oh, Suzie, it’s you. Are you the one sending the trolls over? Since when are you a doctor, or a scientist, for that matter. My statement is not incorrect. In fact, it is derived from a number of resources which, if you took the time to read, you would learn, too.

    At 8 weeks development in utero, the fetus is not a child. To represent it as one is exaggerated and designed to mislead the reader into an argument based on emotion. It does not change the fact that it is up to the woman to decide when and if she will terminate a pregnancy.

    Furthermore, your suggestion of feminist supremacy is completely ludicrous! Men and boys kill people all the time! I mean, puh-leeze! What is it that’s going on in Iraq and Afghanistan? Individual autonomy is under attack, women and children are suffering great indignities and dying thanks to men and boys and their war toys. Get a grip on reality, SuzieQ!

  4. The fetus is a human being. Fetuses are loved, named, fawned over, treated as human beings. That’s because they are human beings. There’s no two ways about that. They are our offspring, and they are loved. You loved your unborn children.

    ONLY when the issue of abortion is brought up do these unborn children suddenly become “fetuses” and their existence is trivialized. In natural social discourse, people speak of the fetus as a baby, and treat the fetus as a baby. Twins and triplets interact with each other as babies would.

    It may be up to the woman to decide if a fetus is aborted, but that’s because we live with this social-legal fiction that the unborn child is not a person, even though he is treated as such when people aren’t thinking of abortion. He is named. Parents interact with their unborn children. They bond with them through ultrasound. They call them their child.

    The feminist ideology about the unborn child was developed before the advent and the widespread use of fetal ultrasound. As it is, it’s outdated. Feminists must now admit the unborn child is not a blob of tissue– as it was (and sometimes is) commonly said. To be scientifically consistent, they have to simply say: yes, the fetus is a human being, but who cares?

    That’s right, who cares if he’s a human being?

    That human being who is acknowledged, loved as a member of the family, named, and so on– the moment he is no longer desirable for whatever reason, he loses all claim to humanity.

    No other human being is treated like that. Only the unborn are discriminated that way.

    Furthermore, your suggestion of feminist supremacy is completely ludicrous! Men and boys kill people all the time! I mean, puh-leeze! What is it that’s going on in Iraq and Afghanistan?

    It isn’t ludicrous. Women are human beings. Fetuses are human beings. Feminists claim women are supreme over their fetuses, ergo, feminist supremacy. It is commonly claimed by feminists that the moment you give a fetus any rights, you make him supreme (as if the alternative of killing an innocent were a lesser evil) therefore the woman must be supreme over her fetus. So in the name of the woman not being “inferior” in the eyes of feminist ideology, a fetus must be allowed to be killed.
    Men and boys kill people, but almost no one says they have a right to kill an innocent person in the name of their autonomy, their freedom, their advancement and their equality.

    Get a grip on reality, SuzieQ!

    I do have a grip on reality. It is you who does not acknowledge the sociological and the physiological reality of the fetus. Parents love their fetuses. Fetuses are treated like human beings. Until the subject of abortion comes up. Fetuses are human beings, but they’re not acknowledged as such. The scientific truth that abortion takes a human life is too difficult for many in the pro-legalized abortion movement to come to grips with. They don’t speak that way about abortion. They use euphemism and doublespeak. The reality explained in plain English is too ugly.

    And I note the infantilization in your calling me “SuzieQ”. In your opinion, as a feminist, is infantilizing women okay when you don’t agree with them?

  5. I wonder why pro-abortion women insist on de-humanizing a pre-born baby by calling it a “fetus”. “Fetus” in Latin, means “Little One”. Little what? a little frog? a fly? a cat, perhaps? The law of biogenisis is very simple: Each living thing reproduces after its own kind. Therefore, frogs beget frogs, dogs beget dogs, cats beget cats, and HUMANS BEGET HUMANS….

    How can two human beings create a separate being that is NOT human but later becomes one??

    By day 18 after CONCEPTION (ie., when the sperm meets the egg which happens up to 7 days before FERTILIZATION!) this unborn entity (the BABY!) has a heartbeat, and by day 43, has brain wave activity we can measure on an electroencephalogram.

    And I fully agree with Suzanne; this is pure female supremacy. And comparing the killing of an unborn child simply because he/she is an inconvenience can hardly be compared to the war in Iraq.

  6. Actually science and doctors know that conception is the point of begining of human life and as such is the begining of human life.
    Without conception there is no human life.
    This is where real science and sudo science lawyers and quacks depart company since it is obvious that if life has begun( which some lawyers have argued does not begin until birth)to end it at any point, intentionally, is abortion.

  7. Therefore, frogs beget frogs, dogs beget dogs, cats beget cats, and HUMANS BEGET HUMANS….

    How can two human beings create a separate being that is NOT human but later becomes one??

    What a silly argument – something that is becoming something else, is not yet that entity. A just fertilized egg is in no way a person – an embryo is “a vertebrate at any stage of development prior to birth or hatching”.

    A fetus is “an unborn or unhatched vertebrate especially after attaining the basic structural plan of its kind” – it may or may not become human (in this case) but what it is and what it may be are two very different things.

  8. Oh, SuzieQ, you’ve decided to party at Politics’n’Poetry, have you? And brought along uninvited guests, too. Am I that much of a threat, is that it? Who knew I wielded such power that you would bring your friends who are liars, miscontruers of science, and outright looneys (!) along with you.

    From the Merriam-Webster dictionary:

    Main Entry: fe·tus
    Pronunciation: ‘fE-t&s
    Function: noun
    Etymology: Middle English, from Latin, act of bearing young, offspring; akin to Latin fetus newly delivered, fruitful.

    Don’t see the words little one in there anywhere. Best get your revised bible dictionary out, or something!

    And, SuzieQ, it is only the woman carrying the fetus who has the right to decide whether to carry that fetus to term or not, only she who will decide if it will become fully human.

    Oh, and tell your little wife4life that the likes of Bush and Harper and the patriarchy often refer to collateral damage, those inconvenient deaths of wars. It’s quite a good comparison, n’est pas?

  9. Gosh, p’n’p, you have quite the fan club. And I hear she does it all herself! 😉

    The “beginning of human life” — what utter rot. Human life began ‘way back when human life began, and it has never stopped since. We pass it on through our li’l living sperms and ova — or we don’t — but human life is an endless living stream.

    The curiosity of the assault your visitors have organized, imho, is their determination to fix everyone’s attention on women’s sexuality, to reinscribe it again and again as the defining reality of women’s lives … as though men were not sexy too?

    I never get that part.

  10. Hate to have to point this out, but if you read further along in the dictionary (mine is the Gage Canadian Dictionary), it specifically says: “the term (fetus) is used for human offspring in the womb from about 9 weeks after conception”.

    So, can’t pro-abortionists have even ONE conversation without resorting to childish name-calling? Really……

  11. SUZANNE wrote above, January 23, 2007 @ 2:07 pm:
    “And I note the infantilization in your calling me “SuzieQ”. In your opinion, as a feminist, is infantilizing women okay when you don’t agree with them?”

    SUZANNE started a thread here:
    http://p104.ezboard.com/Stronach-Suggests-Only-Proabort-orgs-should-get-SOW-/fbluewavefrm2.showMessage?topicID=340.topic
    with the title: “Stronach Suggests Only Pro-abort orgs should get SOW $$$”

    What is SOW, SUZANNE? Could you possibly be referring to SWC, Status of Women Canada? Do you think all women are sows, SUZANNE, including yourself? Is that why you think men should be able to control women’s bodies? You don’t need to be infantilized, you are infantile.

  12. Lisa, the wife4life, said:
    “Fetus” in Latin, means “Little One”.

    I refuted that with a quote from the dictionary, clearly showing that it does not mean what she says it means.

    Now Lisa says:
    the Gage Canadian Dictionary)…specifically says: “the term (fetus) is used for human offspring in the womb from about 9 weeks after conception”.

    And I need refute no longer; she has refuted herself.

    The ability to ignore fact in favour of emotionally-charged lunacy insanity is alive and well. (You’re right, Lisa, I should not have abused Luna, the great goddess as I did when I used the word, looneys to describe SuzieQ and her friends. From now on, I shall use insane.)

    Main Entry: in·sane
    Pronunciation: (“)in-‘sAn
    Function: adjective
    Etymology: Latin insanus, from in- + sanus sane
    1 : mentally disordered : exhibiting insanity
    2 : used by, typical of, or intended for insane persons
    3 : ABSURD
    4 : EXTREME 1

    And SuzieQ, if you got to know me, you’d know that I have pet names for all the people I love. And yes, I love you, too! And, you know what? I’ll still love you when you come out of the closet.

  13. They sure have learned the talk, haven’t they? ‘Infantilzation’? Gee, for someone who thinks blobs of tissue that look more like shrimp than anything deserve full rights infantilization would be a compliment, wouldn’t it?

  14. Well Adam next time you have your period check for a raspberry sized clot and tell me if you think you could determine a sweet little child who knows of it’s own existence and write sob letters to it’s mommy.

  15. Wow, what a great response April. Very civilized, and highly effective in furthering the discussion.

    I wasn’t going to reply to that nonsense, but obviously I have changed my mind. In response I will tell you about something that I have experienced. (No I’m not going to tell you about my period)

    I am a student in the health care field and on one particular occasion I was in the room when a doctor was telling a young woman why she had been bleeding quite heavily. She wasn’t very far along in her pregnancy, maybe 10ish weeks; I can’t remember the exact age. Well, turns out she had unfortunately lost her baby. The pain, sorrow and anguish that she experienced and the tears that she weeped were real. I will never forget the look on her face. It was one of the saddest things that I have had to see thus far in my training. From what I understand, the experience was a whole lot more traumatic for that young woman than losing a “normal period clot.”

    I am, quite frankly, sickened that you would respond in the way that you did. Not only was it immature but it was also potentially very hurtful to someone who might be reading this and has experienced something similar to what I described above. The string of comments here has been mostly personal attacks, and now this. I chimed in to clear up some misinformation on the topic. That blob thing has got to be one of my bigger pet peeves.

  16. Well let me tell you my sad story. I lost a pregnancy at 11 weeks. A WANTED pregnancy. So I was very upset too.

    However, what you seem unable to grasp is the WANTED part.

    Forcing a woman to carry an unwanted pregnancy is like asking her to be a partner to the rape of her own body. Numbers 2 & 3 but all fit.

    Rape;
    1 The crime of forcing another person to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse.
    2 The act of seizing and carrying off by force; abduction.
    3 Abusive or improper treatment; violation:

  17. “I am, quite frankly, sickened that you would respond in the way that you did.”

    Okay, so you’re sickened, that’s not a point of debate it’s a personal attack. Furthermore, who cares if you’re sickened? I find forcing another to do something they find abhorrent to be sickening.

    “Not only was it immature but it was also potentially very hurtful to someone who might be reading this and has experienced something similar to what I described above.”

    Immature? Really? How so? Do you understand what a personal attack is? Suggesting we silence ourselves for fear of hurting someone who wanderers in here is anti-freedom. No one is forcing this blog on anyone. People come here mostly in support or to troll.

    “I chimed in to clear up some misinformation on the topic. That blob thing has got to be one of my bigger pet peeves.”

    When you get a uterus your opinion and your pet peeves might carry some weight, but as of now why do you think any of us give a damn what you think or what your pet peeves are? How very nice of you to assume you are in any position or in possession of superior knowledge so that you must put in your 2 cents.

    If you find our thoughts so offensive you don’t have to read them you know. Don’t force yourself on us any longer.

    And Suzanne, go stalk some where else. It’s tired already. We don’t troll you. So how about you develop some maturity and leave us alone. You have made enough personal attacks about us on your blog.

  18. I consider myself a feminist, but I believe in doing things in the natural way. That includes family planning. I am in a very committed relationship so we have had 8 children. I have been there when one of my friends had a baby that died in utero at 6 months, and boy it scared me on how much it looked like a baby. One of my daughters died a day after birth, and boy did that ever make me think. I could never kill another woman, not matter how small. I helped found the Rose 0f Sharon Services for Young mothers(www.therose.ca) so I’d have a place to put my money where my mouth is. So many of my friends have got screwed up after their abortion. I never want any woman to have to make that choice.

  19. A blob of tissue? My, how retro, how 1970s. Science is hard, eh Barbie? Don’t tell me: you’re playing Carol King’s “Tapestry” album in the background, right?

    And yes, that concept of “wantedness” IS tricky indeed. Are human beings only worthy of life if someone else “wants” them? As long as that “someone else” is you, that works out fine. But…

    Scratch a “progressive”, find a fascist.

  20. “When you get a uterus your opinion and your pet peeves might carry some weight, but as of now why do you think any of us give a damn what you think or what your pet peeves are? How very nice of you to assume you are in any position or in possession of superior knowledge so that you must put in your 2 cents.”

    -Why is it that so many pro-abortion women insist that men do not have a say in this matter because “they don’t have a uterus”? It takes 2 to make a baby, and if you insist on one hand that men be financially responsible for their child/ren even if they are not in a relationship with the mother, than men have just as much right to protest if their child is to be killed through abortion. Yes, the woman is the one to carry the baby for the 9 months of pregnancy, but this is a separate human being, and the bottom line is: no one person has the right to determine if another human being should live or die, ESPECIALLY because it’s an “inconvenience” for her for a few months!

  21. Oh, yawn! Men have had reproductive freedom since time immemorial. They can and do abandon women and their child(ren) all the time.

    Furthermore, in times of armed conflict such as now, they kill innocent women and children. So get off your insanely futile lines of non-argument! It is the woman and the woman alone — she who houses the fetus in the temple of her womb — who has the right to decide whether to bring it to life or not. She is the all-knowing goddess with the power to grant life and not you, not her husband, her family, her government, her doctor, her church! B-)

  22. I thought that April’s reply to Adam was perfectly reasonable, and most women know it was. It is entirely possible to miscarry at seven or eight weeks without ever knowing that you were pregnant and without recognizing what just happened. If Adam had ever had periods, he would know that.

    What was appalling was his comeback. Because he is a man, he assumes blithely that his single vicarious anecdotal experience trumps any woman’s adult lifetime. Those of us who argue for choice know that some women react to miscarriages or abortions with relief; a minority react to abortion with regret (see the stats in last weekend’s NY Times); and those who miscarry a much-wanted child react with grief. It is because we know those things that we support choice. Get it? Choice? And further, why we support our sisters unconditionally in both their choice and their grief when choice has been taken away from them, as it often is.

  23. Ah, was that directed at you, April? I thought I was being called Barbie. Darn. Barbie is sooo much nicer than man-hating vagina warrior gender stalinista. 😦

  24. Oh, yawn! Men have had reproductive freedom since time immemorial. They can and do abandon women and their child(ren) all the time.

    Untrue. The law as it stands says they don’t.

    Furthermore, in times of armed conflict such as now, they kill innocent women and children.

    There are national and international laws against this. There are no such laws protecting the unborn child.

    So get off your insanely futile lines of non-argument!

    So futile, Roe v. Wade is predicted to be overturned. So futile, abortions are widely restricted in the States. So futile, two-thirds of the Canadian public favours some form of legal restriction on abortion.

    It is the woman and the woman alone — she who houses the fetus in the temple of her womb — who has the right to decide whether to bring it to life or not. She is the all-knowing goddess with the power to grant life and not you, not her husband, her family, her government, her doctor, her church! B-)

    Whatever it is that brings her to kill her fetus, it’s not worth a dead fetus.

    You will never completely engage in the debate until you confront the issue of fetal rights. If unborn children were thought not to have rights, there would be no debate.

  25. Cluebat time, MS CAPS. Fetuses do not have rights. Sheesh. There is a debate because it’s about women’s freedom and sexuality. Which scares the shit out of some.

  26. Suzanne, you are truly insane! Rights are granted to citizens. A fetus is not a citizen! It dwells in the body of a citizen. And that citizen, the woman, has the power to grant that fetus life if she so chooses. It is her choice and her choice alone. It is her right and her responsibility, not yours, not the state’s, not her doctor’s, no one else’s but hers.

    Do you not read any of the news coming out of Iraq and Afghanistan? Men and boys are killing women and girls, constantly. The death toll is enormous!

    And, btw, since when have you also become a lawyer? You have a long list of self-aggrandizements, haven’t you? Doctor, scientist, photographer, writer–oh, the list goes on and on! But now you have the capacity to interpret law for us! Wow! Explain that to the woman whose children’s father is a deadbeat dad! You really have no concept of reality, do you? What kind of bubble do you live in, anyway? Glass? Wax? Soap?

    If Roe v. Wade is overturned it will be because the fascist G.W.Bush has ensured that it will, just like he ensured his theft of the 2004 election.

  27. From comment number 7:

    “Fetuses are loved, named, fawned over, treated as human beings.”

    Right. As are imaginary playmates and invisible unicorns.

    When you can pick one up and take it to another room, independant of the host body, then it might become human. But not until then.

    A fetus is no more a human being than an egg is a chicken or an acorn is an oak tree. They all have potential, but that is all.

    On the other hand, I have no uterus, so MZ CAPS will very likely discount my comment as being unimportant.

  28. “Fetuses are loved, named, fawned over, treated as human beings.” For the same reason that we think our dogs and cats understand everything we say: anthropomorphism.

    To suggest a fetus has the same value as a baby or child is like saying a lump of bituminous coal is worth $20,000 because it’ll be a diamond some day. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I’m really getting weary of anti-choicers constantly sticking their noses in other peoples’ crotches.

    Oh and Dianne Comment #26? “Family Matters” Dianne? Nice try, honey.

    BTW p&p, love your blog.:)

  29. Cluebat time, MS CAPS. Fetuses do not have rights.

    I know that. Why do you think I’m pushing for fetal rights?

    Sheesh. There is a debate because it’s about women’s freedom and sexuality. Which scares the shit out of some.

    Nobody is arguing women should not have freedom. Nobody is arguing women should be jailed for having sex, whatever kind of sex it is. Women can do whatever the heck they like on that front.

    If it were about freedom and women’s sexuality, women without uteruses or other infertility issues would be directly affected by this debate.

    They are not. With the removal of the fetus from the debate, there is no debate.

    Therefore, the fetus is at th centre of the debate.

    The question is: does the fetus have legal value? Should he be legally protected?

    The feminist response is that this issue is either 1) irrelevant, because even if the fetus is equal she should have the right to kill him or 2) the fetus does nt have rights.

    If there was no issue surrounding the value of the fetus, there would be no pro-life arguments, no opposition to abortion. Abortion would be 100% legal, with virtually no opposition.

    You want the CONCLUSION to be that a woman be supreme over her fetus. But her autonomy is not the crux of the debate. It’s the fetus.

    But listen, if you want to ignore the debate about the fetus, like the feminists did in the States, that really works for me.

  30. Right. As are imaginary playmates and invisible unicorns.

    So all the women across the world who fawn over their fetuses, name them, love them and so on, they’re all playing pretend? They’re all loving figments of their imagination?

    And you trust them with abortion?

    When you can pick one up and take it to another room, independant of the host body, then it might become human. But not until then.

    Humanity doesn’t work that way. Siamess twins aren’t independent of one another. They’re two people.

    The fact that people treat their fetuses as people is an implicit acknowledgement that they are. If they are prepared to call them son or daughter, in effect, call them members of their own family, they are in effect saying they are members of the human family.

    The only problem is societal double-talk about the fetus. WRT to the abortion issue, he’s a non-human. In every other way, he is human.

    To suggest a fetus has the same value as a baby or child is like saying a lump of bituminous coal is worth $20,000 because it’ll be a diamond some day.

    Well what’s the difference between a 37-week fetus and a newborn? None. Same being. Only different location. Being attached to his mom does not change HIM. A person’s being is not determined by environment. Whether a fetus lives in his mom or an incubator does not affect one whit who he is.

    The fact is, people do treat their fetuses as babies. They’re called babies; they’re named; they’re fawn over the same way as babies are. There is virtually no difference between most mothers’ reaction to her newborn and her fetus.

    When people love their fetuses as babies, that means they acknowledge their fetuses as babies.

    It’s only the law that does not acknowledge this relationship.

    Even Berlynn acknowledges to have loved her children from the moment of conception

    I guess she loved figments of her imagination.

    Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I’m really getting weary of anti-choicers constantly sticking their noses in other peoples’ crotches.

    Again, this is about the equality of fetuses. The sexual activity is not the subject of teh argument. Want to screw around? I won’t stop you. Want to kill unborn children? Then yes, I will speak up.

    That is what the argument about. Putting orgasms ahead of the intrinsic value of human life seems extremely callous.

  31. Suzanne your antics on your blog are obsessive and scary. Posting about BnR constantly isn’t doing anything to further your cause, it’s just pathetic. It’s just you using the Internet like it’s high school. Don’t make me write your name on the bathroom wall.

    You can ask for whatever name you want for a fetus and it doesn’t change that you can’t force a person to give of their body to provide life for another, especially if it can risk their own life or alter them physically permanently. To head down that path means I could claim that kidney you don’t need. I mean as a human I have a right to life and you just might have what I need to live. So it’s only right that you cough up that kidney. And hey, how about your saving? They can be lifesaving to some child starving in Africa, cough it up eh?

    You will never force women to stay pregnant if they don’t wish it. That’s as old as mankind. And prolifers will continue to bred instead of adopt. The ultimate in hipocrisy,

  32. Hi, I wandered in here via a link from another site. Yep, I’m a stranger, a newb. So, I hope you don’t mind that I interject.

    When people love their fetuses as babies, that means they acknowledge their fetuses as babies.

    It’s only the law that does not acknowledge this relationship.

    I love my cats as babies and even refer to them as my baby girls. Therefore, I demand that the law recognize them as such and protect their rights as humans.

    The sexual activity is not the subject of teh argument. Want to screw around? I won’t stop you. Want to kill unborn children? Then yes, I will speak up.

    That is what the argument about. Putting orgasms ahead of the intrinsic value of human life seems extremely callous.

    Am I the only one who notices the contradiction here?

  33. No, that’s a head-turner, CoolAunt. Good catch.

    Did you notice this manoeuvre too?

    So all the women across the world who fawn over their fetuses, name them, love them and so on, they’re all playing pretend? They’re all loving figments of their imagination?

    And you trust them with abortion?

    Y’know, logic like that doesn’t just give me a headache — it gives me whiplash. Somebody does not accept others’ characterizations of women’s reactions to their pregnancies — and then she turns around and uses those characterizations to support her own position? Run that by me again? Or no, on second thought … don’t.

  34. CoolAunt, you’re very welcome here.

    But SuzieQ, I’m beginning to tire of your insanity. You’d be better off finding a good counsellor than continuing to comment here. I mean it’s obvious to a lot of us that you need someone who can help you to work through your internalized misogyny. I’m beginning to wonder if that’s because you’ve never had an orgasm, let alone a child.

  35. Oh, hey, folks, here’s an example of what Suzanne’s and her band’s brand of extremism results in.

    Anti-abortion extremist convicted of killing N.Y. doctor in 1998
    By Associated Press
    Friday, January 26, 2007 – Updated: 05:03 AM EST

    BUFFALO, N.Y. – A man already serving time in a state prison for the sniper-shooting death of a doctor was convicted Thursday on a federal charge of targeting and killing the man because he provided abortions.

  36. What sickens me is the fact that you believe that abortion is right!!! Abortion is the act of STOPPING a heart that is beating!!! Most abortions are done at 9 weeks and up…. At 20 weeks the “baby” can be saved and live outside the uterus…. But i guess as long as it benefits the mother right… Suzanne… Good work!!!! We need people like you to get it out there that abortion is disgusting and immoral!!! Here, just cuz a preganacy is not welcome i guess its “ok” that the life growing inside the mother, is just that easy to get rid of…. And i think you should look back at what you say… You are the crazy ones…what about the abortions comitted at like 6 months…. Oh, i guess that baby that just had its brains sucked out through a hose would disagree!!!!! All i have to say is that ” what good is a world where killing off our own kind a good thing??? I will fight for the lives of babies that get destroyed and maybe abortion will be againest the law…. But lets all pitty the woman that got pregnant and killed her baby… PFFFFFFFFFTTTTTTT.. My god have mercy on our souls!!!! Maybe all you prochoicers should fight for life and not dead….. This blog made me sick….

  37. Well, Amanda, maybe you and Suzette could get a discount rate at the counsellor of your choice. And maybe you should be careful where you travel on the Information Highway.

    And yes, Amanda, I believe that a woman has the power to grant a fetus life if she so chooses. It is her choice and hers alone. It is her right and her responsibility, not yours, not the state’s, not her doctor’s, no one else’s but hers. And I trust she will make the right decision for her self regardless what you or any on the fringes of insanity say.

    It is, after all, her body, not yours.

  38. The only problem is societal double-talk about the fetus. WRT to the abortion issue, he’s a non-human. In every other way, he is human.

    Am I the only one who finds it interesting that she automatically assumes that the fetus is male?

  39. Yeah. The fetus is always male. Weird, eh? Or maybe not. The anti-feminists are very male oriented. Male=good. Female=murderer.

  40. wow…it took me forever to read all of these comments. often times there is more than one child to think about when talking abortions… many girls who have them are under 20. girls as young as 10 are getting pregnant… does anybody really dispute what a toll a pregnancy can take on a girl’s body before its had a chance to really develop? what about the girls whos families shun them for becoming pregnant? do you think that bearing a child that they don’t want is worth that girl finding she’s lost her whole support system just when she needed it most? i was drugged and raped at 16. i wasn’t even sure it had happened until i missed my period. lucky for me, an abortion was a legal option. if it hadn’t been, i would have done anything to miscarry. i would have starved myself, or gone the old wire-hanger route… honestly, the reason i’m pro-choice is for women like me and women in so many other bad situations. women don’t get abortions because they hate babies… they get abortions because they know their lives will worsen if they have the baby. they get abortions because they’re afraid.

  41. abortion is murdering a baby.
    pro-abortionists can only defend their views by calling anti-abortionists stupid names.
    you’re pathetic. nothing justifies abortion, you are cold-blooded child killers.
    a baby is a child as soon as it’s concieved, it’s inside you, part of you, completely dependant on you.
    mothers are supposed to care for and love their babies.. their first instinct is supposed to be to protect their child, not murder it.

  42. reading through this i was absolutely disgusted in some of the comments that have been on on here, fair enough every one is entitlrd to there own opinion but somethings should be thought and not said purely out of respect for others. to say to lose a BABY early in a pregnancy doesnt matter at it is just a clot is a horrible thing to say,i just hope it never happens to you. maybe if it did you would realise its not a blob but is a BABY. i think if you took a step back and actually thought about what you said you would realise it was wrong.

  43. Why can’t people these days just sit down and accept other peoples decisions? I personally, would never have an abortion, because thats just me. But others don’t think the way I do, and so if they choose to abort a baby, or a ‘fetus’, then that is their choice.

    Obviously to want to do that, the baby is not wanted, therefor why should a child after birth, have to live a life where they are reminded every day that they were not wanted,be misstreated or live their childhood life waiting to be adopted or fostered by many couples. Is that fair?

    Another thing that annoys me is that women, or couples that choose to abort after finding desease or other medical problems such as downs syndrome.. there is a reason for this, and its not always a selfish one. You were all once kid’s yourselves and you know how cruel they can be and how scarred people can become after their school years, when they were no different than anyone else, except for some pimples or a constant bad hair day. How would you like a child with downs syndrome or something like that to live in this world? The same people who slate abortion also add to the cruelty towards people that are different. With this attitude, no one can do right!

    My personal opinion,( and others wont agree but get over it thats life,) I would not raise a child with a disability in this world because people do look, they do comment and its cruelty to force a child to be braught up like that or for a parent who cant handle something like that to be forced to raise a special child.

    And what is miscarrage? Before you get out your dictionarys, that was a retorical question. Explain to me, why a stable couple were given the gift of a baby, then had it taken away though they wanted it?

    I think this idea about women wanting to feel superior by haveing the option to abort is just rediculouse. I wouldnt say, ‘oh Im pregnant, but i can have an abortion whenever I want so Im in complete control.’

    How stupid doese that sound??? People dont take abortion as lightly as some people think, and strangely enough, some are actually forced into it, sometimes by the fathers, sometimes by personal circomstance.

    To sum all of this up, i think if people choose to abort, it is their own descision and if it was a mistake, then they will learn from it. But it’s not for anyone else but the parties involved to say. If you don’t agree with abortion, then fine, don’t do it, just don’t badmouth others that either have no choice or feel trapped and don’t know any better.

  44. Wow…what a very disturbing blog. I’m about 33 weeks pregnant and when I was 21 I had a miscarriage. It really saddens me that we think we are in control of life. I guess that’s our way of trying to play God with our giant egos. I would have to agree that most of these entries are just attacks to one another which is not a very informational discussion.
    I love debate because I love learning from others and what they have to say, but unfortunately it is very difficult to learn from some of these entries. It’s easier to be scientific and say that an organism is alive for some reason then an embryo. I don’t understand that. An organsim is any living structure capable of growth and reproduction. Is an embryo not capable of growth? Many people say that an embryo is not alive because there is no heartbeat. So I guess plants are not alive then too. I’m really confused by this incessant desire to declare that it’s offically okay to kill an embryo or fetus.
    “The formation of the blastocyst signals the start of a sequence of changes that are precisely choreographed as a ballet. At the end of week one, the inner cell layer of the blastocyst balloons into two more layers. From the first layer, known as the ectoderm, will come the cells that line the gastrointestinal tract. From the second, the ectoderm will arise the neurons that make up the brain and spinal cord along with the epithelial cells that make up the skin. At the end of week two the ectoderm spins off a thin line of cels known as the primitive steak, which forms a new cell layer called the mesoderm. From it will come the cells destined to make the heart, the lungs and all other internal organs.”
    The Zygote: a fertilized ovum with a DNA sequence of about 46 chromosomes contains human DNA and is alive as the start of a new human organism.
    Of course it is sometimes a matter of justifying one’s actions I suppose. Like back when I was partying and irresponsible. If I got pregnant, an abortion would mean no responsibility. So it would have been my selfish choice to do that. I guess we decide when and what is okay to kill. Because an embryo is small it’s okay like an insect. So the arguement isn’t really about life than is it? Because who’s going to arue about an insect, organism, fungus etc. Because we don’t care about them we don’t care if they live or die. Just like the living forming embryo we can’t see. It’s a matter of us not caring then?
    By the way I’m due May 5th and really excited about it.

  45. Another note: Hitler decided that it was somehow okay to kill the Jews based on his own choice. Everyone has a decision for some reason or another. But does it make it right? That’s why we have laws. I just want to say that I would never judge the person who gets the abortion. I think it’s sad just like someone who decides to kill themself but I do however think the decision is wrong and as a society we need to stand up for what is right and wrong. I am going to try to raise my child to know it is wrong to have an abortion. However if they do I’m not going to hate them because they are human and are capable of making decisions. But again, just because we are capable of making decisions doesn’t mean that all decisions are right. Again Hitler killing the Jews, Slavery, terrorism etc..

  46. Oh, “Amanda,” your posting IP interests me:

    New comment on your post #323 “Blog for Choice”
    Author : Amanda (IP: 132.25.0.206 , evil.ramstein.af.mil)

    33 weeks pregnant and posting from an Air Force Military IP? Please, don’t lie to me, Mandus.

  47. um why are you pointing me out like that? That’s an interesting response. Ooo you figured me out! You’ve won a cookie for your amazing detective work. What does that have to do with anything anyway. Oh wait, let me try to sherlock holmes this. Because I might happen to be in the military I don’t have an opinion right? Because I chose a certain career…what is your career? Because obviously you don’t really want to blog to have an opinion about something which is what I was doing, you are doing it just to taunt people like a little child on a playground. Grow up. Didn’t someone say that earlier? Wait a minute….there’s another blog from someone named Amanda. Is that who you think I am? Well, you’ve pretty much shown me your intellegence level. I pray to God you never have children for fear of how you’ll mess them up. Before I thought, sure she has some extreme things to say maybe this will actually be an interesting conversation. But you seem to take over this place and just throw silly comments at people. Are you bored? Hey I bet in Sim City abortion isn’t scrutinized maybe you should go play that? Oh wait, maybe your confused that I’m pregnant and in the military? Or I’m a killer because we “go out and shoot people”. Ignorance is bliss huh? Either way your response doesn’t make any sense and you make what’s called…Blanket statements! Oh that sucks. Your the reason good conversation ends. Little cute remarks. I believe there are a lot of very intellegent people on this site, but unfortunately once you say something you show to the world your true colors.
    If you are speaking out of pain or your feeling guilty for having done what your speaking against then I’m sorry. I truly am. Like I mentioned above I don’t hate people that do that. It’s always interesting to me how many people believe in “freedom of speech” we should have our own opinion. But really it comes down to all they care about is their own. It’s like people who are different…just like everyone else. Interesting concept. And dazzling logic! Wow..what is our world coming to. To others on this site, I apologize on this persons behalf to fill this page with nonsense when your trying to discuss things on an intellegent level. I respect your ideas. But I urge you to talk to someone who has a disability like down syndrome and see if your hurting their feelings with what your saying. I read a woman’s response on a different page who had down syndrome and she was pretty upset. She believes she has the right to live, is happy and makes other people happy. She’s grateful that she was given the choice to live. No one’s perfect.

  48. Ok well this is just a little bit of my mind. Some of you think that killing an unborn child is ok. That there isn’t anything wrong with it because it happens everyday. That is just B/S. Yeah people do it all the time but it doesn’t make it right. People kill children, adults, the old the young, and it happens everyday….but would you like it if someone came in your house and killed you or your loved ones? UM lets think about it ……..nope you wouldn’t.
    Did you know that a baby has a heart beat inside you when you are only 3 to 4 weeks pregnant? That means that its ALIVE. You don’t find out your pregnant until you are about 5 or 6 weeks along. So when you find out…..like it or not….its a human.
    But thats ok if you want to disobey god….you will deal with him soon enough.
    THERE IS NOT ONE REASON YOU CAN GIVE ME TO MAKE ME UNDERSTAND WHY YOU DID THE ABORTION. ITS WRONG AND SHOULD BE AGAINST THE LAW!

  49. That’s so true! I wouldn’t want to have to explain to God why I murdered a child. Or to come face to face with the child in heaven and have to explain it to them!

  50. Oh, puh-leeze! Give me a break! Your nattering on at each other in this way is evidence only of your inability to move beyond your own narrowmindedness.

    And, btw, this is my blog and I’ll say what I damned well please on it. If you don’t like it, you are welcome to visit the millions of other sites out there…oh, and say, since you’re compulsory pregnancy people, you might like this one.

  51. Interesting that YOU of all people would call US narrowminded. You’re absolutely right this is your blog and you can say whatever the hell you want. I was mistaken, I guess this blog is only for people with your opinion. So that makes you narrowminded does it not? We were discussing our opinion that’s all. Does it threaten you that people feel differently or something? You seem to get riled up when people state views opposite of you. Again, you have yet to come up with an intellegent response to anything that has been said. You’ve so far said nothing in discussion that would make people think or wonder if maybe you are correct. All you’ve done (ie: your recent response) Is again say something rediculous as if narrowminded would apply to stating one’s opinion. Hmmm maybe you should whip out that dictionary of yours and look up narrowminded since you’ve needed that dictionary for everything else in this discussion! Again, just because you have the right to decide something doesn’t make it right. People make decisions every day involving life or death.
    So being that it’s not even a matter of the embryo or fetus being alive (because even scientists agree to that) it is a matter of decision. I guess you don’t care who you hurt when it comes to decisions. What do you mean by compulsery pregnant people? I’m pregnant and compulsive? Are you pregnant? Have you ever been pregnant? My pregnancy wasn’t planned or anything but we are still choosing to have this baby. Personally, and this is my opinion, I couldn’t live with the idea of getting rid of this baby because of circumstances. It is my responsibility. I had the sex, the sex lead to me being pregnant. For me to get rid of it then would be pretty selfish. Again, this is my opinion so don’t get all heated when you read this or threatened using such big exsasperated words like Puh-leese. Emphasis on the Puh I guess. Is that word in the dictionary?

  52. Wow…what an interesting read. I can’t believe there are woman out there that are still bitching about being unequal. Is being a woman such an insult? Being able to have a baby? How in the world would you send us to read that and have us not think you’re feministic? (like you argued about earlier) Oh no the men are taking over! Are you serious?? Wow..that’s really sad. Okay if you don’t want to get pregnant and have a baby, then guess what…DON’T. In fact with views like that it certainly would be the better choice. No one is forcing you to have babies. If you don’t want to then use birth control and condoms. Hell, get depo shots or get an operation so you can have worry free sex with no responsibilities. If that’s what this is about then its no wonder you feel it’s okay to get rid of a baby. Because let me tell you, I am pregnant (due May 5th) AND I have a career. Sure, there are still people that think woman shouldn’t work or be in certain careers but we are big girls. I’m not going to go out there and not get pregnant(or worse kill off my baby) or shave off all my hair to prove a point. This is my life not theirs. Let people have their own opinion. There are plenty of woman in important roles. In fact the person that has and is making a crap-load of money is Oprah. With this femistic attitude, you are shoving men out of the picture. Men don’t even want to open woman’s doors anymore because we have to “prove” we can do stuff too. I happen to love Chivalry. Please to all you men out there, I appreciate you. I appreciate my husband who loves to do stuff for me out of love. Some woman are just confused about what they really want.

  53. Good grief! I’ll give you points for persistence, anyway!

    What you don’t get my dear is that it is your right to be pregnant and I wouldn’t take that away from you or from any woman. What you don’t seem to be able to get through your narrow mind — and I use this phrase as a statement of observation, not name calling — is that in a free and democratic society women must have a choice in the matter of reproduction. Women must have reproductive freedom.

    And that, btw, is an issue separate from that of sex.

    And no one is asking you to shave your pubic hair or to end a pregnancy, so relax and open your mind and think of others besides yourself for a minute or three, will ya?

  54. So I guess we’re both saying the same thing: Narrowminded and choice. I can handle someone accepting responsibility for their actions, but in no way do I condone someone trying to “justify” their actions by saying what they are doing isn’t killing. If that is someone’s choice then so be it, but be prepared for the unfortunate circumstances that come along with it and accept responsibility for what it is. Like I said earlier, about hurting people’s feelings with disabilities. They are hearing people say that someone should have ended their life. That just makes me sad. I mean I would be crushed if I found out my parents didn’t want me and thought about ending my life just because of a disability or because they had a “choice”. People with disabilities have a tough enough time in our society as it is let alone them thinking that people don’t want them around! I am thinking about other people. If a woman has an unwanted pregnancy there’s always adoption. Do you know how many couples there are that are waiting for a child through adoption? Yes we do have choices and there’s definately better ones then abortion. In fact I want to work with children and if I found out that one of the teens got pregnant, were scared and didn’t know what to do, I would try to point them towards adoption. Hell I would take the child in myself. So I wouldn’t say I’m closing my mind or not thinking of others. Just that there are other options out there. Also people do try to justify it to feel better about it, or deny the fact that it is ending a life.
    I do feel bad that we live in a society that pushes woman to make that type of decision. Or religions out there that make woman feel trapped. That is quite unfortunate.
    I’ve heard some woman say that they feel abortion is right if they are raped because it would always remind them every time they looked at the child. That’s horrible. My parents got a divorce and that would be like my mom getting rid of us because we remind her of him or what happened. We can’t just kill someone off because of a bad situation. Like I said there’s always adoption.
    Can I ask a personal question? Have you been burned before in this area? I’m just curious what has made you come to your conclusions. Are you speaking on behalf of personal experience?
    By the way, I wasn’t referring to my pubic hair! LOL

  55. Your analogies are foolish, at best, Amandus. Women have had the ability to end pregnancies for a very long time and to use a variety of methods to do so. Many have died as a result of the kind of restrictions your line of thought results in.

    Reproductive freedom is fundamental to women’s human rights. None of your arguments come even close to addressing the issue that is the substance of the discussion. Everything you write veers the reader off to other tangents based on your right wing fundamentalism and not on the point of the matter, that being women’s human rights.

  56. People don’t die because of me or my “restrictions”. I was telling my point of view is all. You trying to make me responsible for death is a pretty sick thing to do. I had nothing to do with it. We live in a world where people die. I hate to say it, but things happen and you can’t play God plain and simple. It does sadden me that part of your defense is to try to make it look like someone that believes in preserving a life, is responsible for killing. You obviously haven’t read thoroughly what I wrote, because if you did, I did mention that woman have a right to choose. Everyone does. Your skating around a serious issue to fight for woman’s rights which in your mind means more to you then a baby’s life. I think you need to really think about this issue more instead of being blinded by your own selfish wants and making accusations. How is what I wrote filled with tangents? A woman with down syndrome is hurt because of what people have been saying about ending a child’s life with a disability. That is a cold hard fact. If you choose to live in ignorance and argue in your ignorance than that is your choice. Why keep fighting the issue of choice? You just said it yourself, woman are finding any means to end a pregnancy. So what excactly is your arguement? People are concerned with wanting to save a child’s life. Your arguement: That woman have a right to choose. A woman could die during pregnancy. There’s always that chance, so in your mind it’s the better of two evils then. Death or death. Are you following or thinking this is another “tangent” because you seem to be the only one saying that.
    People like you make me sick. They uphold their rights and choices over someone’s life. How far is this way of thinking going to go? Where is the line going to be drawn. It’s so easy to sum all the horror of murdering a baby with the simple word: Abortion. Makes it easy to say huh? Otherwise it might be a little awkward to say yeah I’m pro-death, pro-murder, I’m pro killing someone for woman’s rights. People might not be able to choke that down so well. Call it what you will, it’s still a horrible thing. And it does boil down to choices. Like again, something that you have not even once mentioned: Adoption. You are very selfish. The greatest act of love, is laying your life down for another. It’s important to fight for our rights, but is what your sacrificing worth it? It it worth it to say, “Ha! I can do whatever I want” when a life is involved?

  57. None of what you say has anything to do with women’s reproductive freedom and if you are bound and determined to ignore that, then you repeatedly demonstrate your own narrow-mindedness. I have posted to encourage discussion on reproductive freedom and human rights and you cannot even address the issue, diving instead into your own warped belief system, exaggerated emotion and the like. Your type make me tired.

    And, you can tell your army of troglodytes that they need not check the discussion here every day because I quit trying to reason with unreasonable and narrow-minded fundamentalists such as you.

  58. wow…having an opinion about something is called warped and exaggerated emotion. How sad. We’re did freedom of speech go? I’m pretty sure you’re the narrow minded one since we can’t come in here and state what we think. You’re very bitter and closed off towards other people’s opinions and it’s too bad.

  59. And you are being a disrespectful and reactionary individual in your constant badgering and inability to stick to the topic of discussion which, for your information, is women’s reproductive freedom as a basic human right.

  60. Ya PnP what’s up with that? So I want to call you a warped baby killer who hates disabled people and probably eats kittens for fun. Where’s the problem why won’t you talk to me.

    Wait wait just let me poke you in the eye. Look now you won’t talk to me or look at me? Whatever happened to respect?

    and BTW don’t forget freedom of speech means the fetus fetishers the righteous get their say and you get to agree with them.

    Tsk Tsk when will you get it?

  61. how the hell am I being disrespectful by sticking to what I believe? When will you get it? I’m actually going to send people in here who have survived abortion or who have a disability. Maybe then reality will hit you and you can talk to them about how they feel. I believe you’ve called me narrowminded and all sorts of stuff, so your pretty damn hypocritical. Cold, heartless and hypocritical. In case you’ve missed it so many times, I have mentioned the choice woman have. Woman’s reproductive freedom: freedom of choice right?? Did I miss something? NO I am simply disagreeing and I guess now that’s considered disrespectful huh? You guys can continue with your cold-hearted ways and attitude. Just make sure you are very careful to use protection so no baby has to suffer with your damn Woman’s rights. I am not asking anyone to agree with me. But I have a right to respond. As does everyone. This is in fact an open to the public blog is it not?? By the way, I believe you mentioned earlier that I was “responsible” in some way to woman dying. Who’s pointing fingers and badgering?

  62. Let me clarify my disagreement since it has gotten so confused.

    We have the right to choose. Killing is wrong. Spelled out enough? We should make the right choice.

  63. All your ramblings amount to nothing more than blather, designed to manipulate and confuse. Nice try. You’ve effectively hung yourself, Mandus Norton. You say killing is wrong, yet you post from an af.mil IP address somewhere in Germany. Oh, that is just tooooooo rich!!!

    Yes, we should make the right choices, shouldn’t we, O-Holier-Than-Thou?

  64. O-Holier-Than-Thou is right.

    Even God provided choice. He didn’t go up to Mary and Hey nice ass, and by the way this is how this is gonna play, I’m gonna knock you up and your gonna have my kid cause if you try to have an abortion you’re a dirty godless hussy.

    As a matter of fact religious precedent is that abortion is acceptable until the quickening which is roughly around 5 months, and since 98% of abortions are conducted before that time ( the 2% consisting mainly of operations to save the mothers life) twould seem that the fetus fetishers are the ones getting it wrong.

    The Catholic Church view on abortion these days – that life begins at conception – started only in the 1700s. Interestingly around the same time that the church started to lose it’s iron grip on the populace.

    You are more than entitled to your opinion. You are NOT entitled however, to rule my life or my choices with your opinion.

  65. Did somebody say that babies born as a result of unwanted pregnancies should be given up for adoption? Oh, how I hate that arguement. It comes from people who give absolutely no thought to how difficult pregnancy can be, and how utterly frightening and painful the labour and delivery process is. You would have to be a misogynistic fool to force a woman to carry a child to term and endure everything from morning sickness, back problems, sciatica, painful and engorged breasts, pelvic bone and groin pains to being a near invalid for most of the 9 months. And those problems don’t disappear the day the baby is born. They persist for months or years; some persist for a lifetime. Not to mention the possibility of surgery and all the risks that surgery exposes a woman to. That stuff is not fun when the pregnancy is planned and wanted. To force a woman to go through that when the pregnancy is unwanted is plain oppressive. There is no other word for it. OPPRESSIVE. It can drive one to a state of extreme despair and depression.

    People who want to adopt don’t have to wait for somebody to have an unplanned pregnancy. There are already lots of kids waiting to be adopted in the world. There is no need to be cruel and force more women to carry their pregnancies to term when they don’t want to.

    Call it abortion, call it murder, call it wrong, call it whatever the fuck you want. Forcing a woman to endure pregnancy and its after-effects for at least a year is the equivalent of taking a big chunk out of her life. Doubtless, she would have to put off education/career plans during this time. Terminating the growth of a fetus that does not have the ability to process right from wrong, let alone have a fully developed brain and body like a ‘human being’, makes a heck of a lot more sense than the cruel oppression of an adult woman.

    Adoption. You are very selfish. The greatest act of love, is laying your life down for another. It’s important to fight for our rights, but is what your sacrificing worth it? It it worth it to say, “Ha! I can do whatever I want” when a life is involved?

    Read this verrrry slowly: But you seeeee, the feeetus is NOT looovvved. It is UN-WAANTTED!! Why the fuck should anybody lay down their life for something that is unwanted?

    I mean I would be crushed if I found out my parents didn’t want me and thought about ending my life just because of a disability or because they had a “choice”.

    Errr… hate to break it to you, Amanda, but if your parents had ended your life as a fetus, you wouldn’t exactly be crushed, would you? You wouldn’t even exist. And people tend not to think about terminating the life a child/adult with a disability after the child is born.

    My parents got a divorce and that would be like my mom getting rid of us because we remind her of him or what happened.

    Of course, that’s horrible. What the fuck do you expect pro-choicers to say? Oh, they should have killed you off. It would have been for the best? Fetus: no cognitive abilities, partially developed brain, weird looking reptilian ‘body’, just a mass of (very few) cells at the very beginning. A few cells don’t make up a ‘human being’. You: fully-developed adult (or child, as the case may be), in other words, a ‘human being’. Nobody is advocating for the death of a human being, but the prevention of the growth of a mass of cells into a human being. Do try to understand the difference before you start mouthing off inchoerent nonsense.

    I am thinking about other people.

    Maybe try to think a little less about other people’s lives that are none of your business, mmm?

  66. I think pregnacy is a beautiful thing and I’m looking forward to my baby comming into this world. My brother’s wife just gave birth and they are also very happy.
    I guess I can’t spell it out any more. I’ve already tried and still being accused of trying rule someones life with my opinion. I’m not going to any extremes, like posting a big web site on this or going out and protesting. Just stating an opinion. Sheesh.

  67. By the way its really creepy that you went through the trouble of finding my IP address and announcing it to everyone. That has stalker written all over it.
    It’s really sad that people are going against the military so severely especially when our job is to protect our country. People are never grateful. They turn around and attack the people that are trying to help out their country and do something honerable. How depressing.

  68. FYI, Mandus, blog owners — that’s me — receive a copy of the comment as well as the IP address of the poster and the poster’s email address when the post is made, so the only “stalking” I had to do was to read my email. You may want to read the rules and regulations that WordPress provides before you engage in any further harassment, because, you can be quite sure that you are engaging in harassment at this point. My patience is notoriously long, but you are becoming very close to breaking it and when that happens, you will be banned from posting here in the future. Consider yourself warned, m’dear.

    I am grateful for the women and men who sign up to serve their country. I am not grateful for the death and destruction our country is taking on on behalf of the USA. What is going on in the Middle East is wrong on so many levels and is not up for discussion under this blog post for here, I remind you YET AGAIN, we are discussing women’s reproductive freedom as a human right, something you have been unable to effectively argue in the many, very wordy, incoherent comments you have posted thus far. I suggest you find another person to hound because I’m growing very weary of your narrow-minded rants.

  69. Did you know the motto of REAL(so-called) Women, as stated on their website?:
    “Women’s rights, but not at the expense of human rights.” In other words, they think women are not quite human; or that “human rights” means men’s rights only. And after all, they seem to think men have a right to order women around; the poor deluded, inferiority-complexed self-hating things!

    Didn’t somebody once say something like “If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament”?

  70. I’ve accidentally stumbled onto this blog after doing some searching on the internet looking for ultrasound photos.

    I am 9 weeks pregnant. Anyone who says that my baby does not have a soul or is not alive is extremely naive. My husband and I were absolutely overjoyed at seeing our beautiful baby on ultrasound just a week and a half ago. At 7 1/2 weeks pregnant, I saw my baby’s heart beating on the monitor, and saw him move subtley a few times. I also had the great privilege of hearing his heart beating. He is alive and he is well. You can not prove with your dimwitted comments that this precious baby is just a “blob of tissue” and has no rights. He is OBVIOUSLY alive as I have witnessed it.

    I have had a miscarriage at 8 weeks and God forbid it were to ever happen to my husband and I again. For those of you who say that it happens to some women and they don’t even know it – have you ever actually been there? Miscarrying at 7 to 8 weeks is VERY painful. You have very intense contractions, plus unimaginable amounts of blood. It is MUCH DIFFERENT than a “normal period”. And especially to those of you who think it doesn’t take an emotional toll on women or even men, you are incredibly foolish. My husband and I grieved for months.

    I don’t know who posted the comment about God and Mary and the placement of baby Jesus, but obviously you have no idea about the Bible and the church. My husband is about to graduate from seminary and it is astounding what I have learned. The church (whether it be Catholic or Lutheran as they were dominant at the time) NEVER would have condoned “murdering” a baby. In fact there is a passage in the Bible that I will be happy to get that says that one day in Heaven, unborn children will no longer be killed. This is from the old testament. Only RECENTLY in the past 150 years has the idea of abortion and pro-choice come to surface (with people actually thinking it is okay to murder an unborn child). The morals of this country and the world are rapidly changing for the worse. It is apparent in the music being played on the radio, the movies being released, what is being shown on TV and who America “idolizes”. People who are stupid, unclassy and have no right to be in the spotlight. People who abuse drugs and alcohol and party all night and have children and leave them to be raised by strangers. And these people are our role models. No wonder so many wrongs have become right? Two hundred years ago this country was still founded on God (and has been since the beginning) but only in the 20th century has that changed. People would have been MORTIFIED at what is being discussed today. But this is because our country and our world’s views have tremendously shifted. Greed, selfishness and power have taken supremecy in our world today. Why do women get abortions? Because they are selfish. I WILL address the idea of sex. If women choose to have sex, it is THEIR responsibility to prevent pregnancy. And if they don’t, that’s okay, an abortion is an option. Get a grip on reality! Because of their inability to protect themselves, they now have the right to destroy another life! I believe it is pure lazyness and so many women do act off of impulses. Think for a second and keep your pants on long enough to make the right decision. Men as well!!!

    Now, my little rant above does not include women who are raped. Women who are raped who end up with a pregnancy, my heart goes out to them. A had a friend who was raped on her 17th birthday and the rape resulted in pregnancy. She knew though that once she found out that she did not have the right to destroy this life that was not her own. It was NOT the baby’s fault for being conceived! Do these babies choose to be conceived??? No! Now, is it her fault either? Absolutely not! But she nobley realized that this baby has a right to live just as much as any other human being. I applaud her for her decision because it is not one that many women would choose to make. And yes, she did end up keeping the baby and he was a BEAUTIFUL baby. His name was Camden. He was the light of her life. Unfortunately Camden was lost to leukemia at the age of 3. I have never seen my friend struggle so hard through anything in her life. He was not a product of rape, he was Camden. He was his own. And he was hers. He did not get to choose who his father was. This should never be put on an unborn baby’s shoulders.

    I know I have gone on and honestly, it was probably pointless as I will probably be scrutinized and lashed out at. But I know that the time will come when we will all have our judgment day and then the world will finally see what is right and what is clearly wrong. I pray that day comes fast because the world is cruel, hard and selfish. And it will only get worse. I pray God has mercy on the souls who have abortions and think nothing of it. Their unborn baby had a soul and is resting gently in God’s arms in heaven due to their mother’s cruelty.

    But none of you will ever see that. Until it’s too late.

    To those of you who have had abortions and have deeply regretted it (as I have met some women who have been there), my heart does go out to you and in no way does this post point to you. With realization and repentence comes forgiveness. God has forgiven you and tomorrow is a new day.

  71. I agree with Danielle.

    There is no point in arguing with those of you who refuse to see killing a small, helpless being for what it truly is. You will not understand because your hearts have been hardened. You can hate me, but I love my eight-week-old embryo (soon to be fetus), and that is my choice. It already has a heartbeat that I have heard on ultrasound. In medicine, time of death is called when a heart stops beating. So wouldn’t something become alive when its heart starts to beat? My baby is alive inside me; it doesn’t just “magically” become alive the minute it technically becomes a “fetus” or when it passes out of my body in a delivery room…how ridiculous, uneducated, and selfish that thinking seems!

    I will pray for all of you. And please don’t rag me about being “uneducated.” I have a doctorate level degree in medicine. When you do, too, then come talk to me.

  72. Oh! Look! They’re arriving in pairs now, these fetus fetishists…
    And I think they are liars, too. After 200 visitors in one day, a “stumble” is extremely unlikely!

  73. What i don’t understand p and p is why you feel the need to make your debate so personal…just reading your responses you are so defensive! Calling people Fool’s/Insane for having a different opinion! I think alot more people would actually take your points/comments on board if you didn’t insult them. Why are you so wound up? Why are you so angry and bitter at people who have a differing opinion to you? It’s childish to think that everyone has to think like you think. We have all been brought up differently, therfore people share differing values. Last time i checked freedom of speech was a value that all you americans cherished!

  74. I’ve got an idea. Kill the Rapists! oh wait… then it would be one person too late…. (^ – ^) Then no one will need to have abortions (unless medically their life is in danger) I’m pro-choice, but believe in limitations. A victim of rape TWICE, though no pregnancies occurred from those. 13 weeks pregnan with the love of my life by CHOICE. Abortionists need to chill and go find something else to do. People are going to have abortions whether you like it or not.. but to get SO worked up over it… you really arent going to change anything.. just cause more arguments. Do you think I like it when hardcore bible thumpers wave bibles in my face for not being their faith? No, so what do I do? Smile at them and walk away. Also, if you (the anti people) are going to remain so worked up on Anti Abortion, why not target the MAIN source of the problem? Why not focus on those prone to cause rape? Get involved in your community and talk to kids about abstinence, safety, and such. Ways to avoid attacks, etc. Force your views on the areas which lead to abortions (the MAJORITY of them I mean)….. but leave Women who have a choice ALONE. They wont listen, and never will… their hate for you will only grow, as will yours, and NO ONE WILL GET ANYWHERE.

    Now, if you’ll excuse me, my fetus wants ice cream.

    (^ – ^)

  75. I am 7 weeks pregnant and absolutely delighted because I finally feel ready. However…
    Fuck the people who will call me selfish for choosing not to bring a child into the world prior to this time. I don’t remember whose comment it was, possibly Suzanne (though please don’t get your panties in a bunch if it wasn’t you), only a matter of level of developement and location mark the difference between a baby and a fetus. Should we be punished for allowing our menstrual cycles to occur without trying to conceive? Should men be penalized for ejaculating anywhere other than on a woman’s cervix? I mean really, the egg that someone tried fervently to prevent from becoming fertilized has the potential to become a baby, right? In fact, for the hard core ‘pro-lifers’- or anti-choicers, as would be a more apt description, this should be completely true. Guess I should probably have been examining my used tampons, looking for something to mourn and eventually bury?
    On a seperate note, the most accurate thought I have ever encountered about abortion (and this is summarized, I cannot give credit because this was easily ten years ago) is that basically a woman does not want an abortion as one wants an ice cream or a Jaguar; rather she wants an abortion as a fox with its leg caught in a hunter’s trap wants to gnaw it own leg off. If you give this just a moment of thought, put yourslf in someone else’s shoes for sixty seconds and think before commenting, you may see a grain of truth to this. And I am saying this as someone who could not be more amazed at the miracle that I feel is occuring in me. I just don’t feel the need to force anyone else to have a child and further overpopulate the world.
    Just one more thing, the spelling in most of the anti-choice rants is apalling, just to let you know 🙂 Perhaps you should use spell check, a dictionary, etc. I suppose you make for good entertainment when you are the contestants on “Are You Smarter Than a 5th Grader?” And please, if you can intelligently refute my argument without resorting to insults (ok you get a free pass for because of the contestant comment) please do. Otherwise, please get on with your lives and trying to conceive with every menstrual cycle and come back here to comment when and only when you have given birth to at least ten children, and let us know your opinion after almost every fiber of your body has been consumed by your spawn. Oh, p’n’p, thank you for hosting a forum where people can express their opinions on such a heated but important topic.

  76. Bravo, Thinker.

    I’ve been watching this blog for a while now, and trying to make a good point, but you took the words right out of my mouth.

    and before I start let me clarify that I’ve been on both ends of this argument. And I too am now 6 weeks pregnant and I’m thrilled to be, just like you Thinker, so I applaud you for being as open minded as I am, there aren’t many that I’ve met.

    But I do want to add a couple things if I may:

    1.All you pro-lifers need to think before you speak. You say that a 6 week old fetus has just as much rights as a baby at 37 weeks justation? Right….let’s put this into perspective for a moment. Have you ever stepped on an ant? Swatted a mosquito or a fly? Threw a shoe at a spider? I know I have, there are very few people who can say no(unless you’re a buddhist monk), so, with that said:Until 8 weeks, a human embryo has no brain activity, and even after that, it has limited automatic responses, it doesn’t even feel pain until about 20 weeks justation. now, since that’s been cleared, technically an embryo (or fetus if you’d prefer, a rose by any other name after all, let’s not go back to trivial debates)has just as much, if not less brain activity and self awareness as the smallest little ant. In fact I’m sure it’s less, because a fetus doesn’t have the cognitive ability to communicate with other fetuses and build huge mounds of dirt.

    So if you’re willing to squish an ant that can definitely feel, be scared, exhibit the natural ‘flight or fight’ reflexes, then why are you so up in arms about abortion? And don’t give me that B.S. about ‘It’s not the same as a human!’ Why? because we’re soooo superior? That’s crap, in the ten thousand+ years we’ve been around we’ve managed to literally rape the earth of it’s natural resources and start to bring about our own destruction. Now don’t get me wrong, I drive a car and use aerosol hair spray so I’m not exactly a greenie, but who are we to say we’re superior to any other life, especially to God, which you pro-lifers like the throw around so much too. For all you know, he may think just as bad of you for swatting a fly as for killing an embryo. Those creatures have managed to live nearly unchanged for millions of years and adapt, even thrive, unlike humans, so don’t get all arrogant and think it’s ANY different to kill a fetus/embryo than to kill a ‘lesser creature’.

    Point number 2.You automatically assume that all pro-choicers are pro-abortion. Well that’s simply not true. Only you pro-lifers are that one-sided. The very word is self explanatory: Pro-Choice. We believe in a woman’s right to choose and not have any idea forced upon her. you don’t, you only believe in ONE way, ONE choice. Being a free citizen of this world, living in ANY country which has democracy believes in that very concept. That everyone has the right to make their own decisions as to what they want to do with their lives, whether you like it or not, it’s not up to you and probably never will be. Feel free to give your opinion, that’s the beauty of democracy, it gives us the freedom to choose to have a baby or not, or to post on this board and share our views. but you’re never going to be able to take other’s people’s choices away, because the moment that starts happening, we start living in a world where we’re not even allowed to wear what we want or say what we want. And even if I was againt abortion, which I’m not, I still wouldn’t want to force anyone else to be like me, it’s up to every individual what they want to do with their life and their body.

    And this comes from a woman who’s engaged and starting a family, so suck on that. I love my family and love the soon-to-be-baby growing inside of me, but I look at it logically:If by some twist of fate I miscarried, god forbid, yes, I would be sad…….but I wouldn’t have a funeral either. I would get on with my life and try again. Abortion isn’t the ‘huge past regret I want to kill myself for doing it’ mistake that you people think it is. If you’ve been through it and it was hard for you, I’m sorry, then you have every right to feel the way you do. But not everyone feels that way, remember. Voice your opinions, don’t commonize others for not having that same opinion as you. And for those of you who haven’t had it happen? You have NO say whatsoever and your opinion means absolutely crap to me.

    But just too add, those of you out there who have have three in one year? Use some common sense and a condom, it’s safer and much, much cheaper!;)

    But again, that’s just my ‘opinion’

  77. Thank you, deb_atable, for filling in the last points I wish I had been able to make last night, and for doing so in a less confrontational manner than I was able to manage. The irony of considering oneself to be pro-choice and being named pro-abortion instead is certainly not lost on me, and I am sure it is not lost on you either as obviously we are both overjoyed at the thought of having the CHOICE to continue our pregnancies.
    Another thing I would like to add is that blocking women from being able to acess safe, medically controlled abortion (if that is what they feel the need) is the truly immoral act in my eyes. For hundreds of years women, especially midwives, have been aware of various devices that will cause them to miscarry and used these techniques to do so. Unfortunately, many were quite unsafe, or not as effective as they hoped, and would result in the death of the mother or the births of strange, malformed, abnormal children that were unwanted and often suffered through their lives. Especially in the times when people truly thought that anyone who looked very different from the norm or was developementally disabled was possessed by the devil. So, please don’t force us to regress to using these measures.
    Furthermore, if an embroyo is truly a complete human being than it shouldn’t be a problem where it is located, correct? If it needs to be in a host body, then that pretty much fits in with the description of a parasite… Not that I feel that my pregnancy is parasitic, but to someone who does not want to have a child I can easily see them feeling as though they are simply a host body.
    There are many individuals I would like to respond directly to, so please, if you have a differing opinion and feel you can add somthing of value, I would love to read it

  78. Hi,
    I felt the need to post a comment although I’m a little worry about any responces I get.I will be honest…
    I am pregnant, about 4 weeks, i’m 23, have a very low income. Conciving was an accident although I am in a loving relationship. I have an appointment at the doctors tomorrow to discuss abortion.I will not be going through with this pregnancy.
    I have read most of the discussions on this page and if I wasn’t in this position I would easily be able to argue both sides of the coin in a very empathetic way. A life is a life from the moment of conception. And if you think about it, every sperm and egg have the potential to be a human being so every condom, pill or injection you use is stopping that potential. But the point that all of the discussions I have read are missing is the reality of being a parent and the impact of this on everyones life. I hold my hands up, I could probably have done more to stop myself from getting pregnant but unfortunately it has happened. Now, the repocussions of me having a baby would mean an unhappy life for me, my family and my partener. I do not have enough money to support me AND a child, I am not mentally ready to have a child and my other half certainly is not. If I bring a child into this life I will provide for it and give it the best possible life I can and it will be when I and my partener are ready. If I am going to be responsible for looking after and nuturing a child/teenager/adult for the rest of my life, and right now i’m not ready to do that and have the choice of abortion of course I am going to take that option. If I do not have that option then I would have to accept my situation but NO unborn baby would thank me for bringing them into a world where I could not provide for them and would end up resenting me. This choice will be with me for the rest of my life but I know it is the right thing for me to do. If more people took responsibility for their actions and their situations, less children would be abandoned and abused, I know a bold statement but you get my point?

  79. are there any adults on here?!
    people on both sides of the argument are quite able to use BIG words, And even in the right context!
    but at the end of the day, youre turning away from a subject this important to so many women, JUST to childishly insult each other!
    bravo! you are more moronic than your vocabularies would suggest!

  80. Just one now that you are here, right?

    Do you have anything to add one way or another? Because it would seem you are just attacking the people who have already expressed their thoughts and feelings while, “you’re turning away from a subject this important to so many women, JUST to childishly insult…” said women.

  81. yes as a matter of fact, i am pro choice, in as much as i do not feel as though i am superior enough to even attempt to force my opinions onto anyone else, and if another woman thought that abortion was the right option for her at that point, then i would not look down on her. although i myself am only 19 and have just found out im 9 weeks pregnant, and i found myself personally to be unable to terminate despite it being unplanned and unwanted by the father. but there is a chance i may have chosen otherwise if i didnt have my family to support me, or i felt unable to bring a child up the way i believe it should be brought up.
    no woman can say she has been in EXACTLY the same situation as another, therefore no one is in a position to judge another for her decisions.

  82. I found this site by accident and probably wont ever be back again, but a lot of these comments really got to me so I had to say something.
    1. I have 2 children and one on the way they became my “children” the day I found out I was pregnant, my oldest I found out I was pregnant with at 4 1/2 weeks. At 4 1/2 weeks, “it” was my CHILD!
    2. I had a miscarriage at 6 weeks, just 2 months before concieving my 3rd child. According to you I didn’t lose a baby because it wasn’t born yet, it wasn’t alive…. I beg to differ, I had already had an ultrasound, I saw the heartbeat and when I lost it, I was devastated. Just as devastated as I would have been if one of my born children had died. And just for the record, my husband was just as devastated. That was just as much a part of him as it was me. Half my DNA, half his. He has every right to mourn the loss of a child, he should also have the right to decide if his child gets to live. Saying that losing a child is like a “normal” period is completely inaccurate. Who doesn’t know right away? Unless your in denial, you KNOW! If your in denial, you’ll wait, Because you don’t want to “know” (even tho in your heart of hearts you already do), otherwise, you get a test and take it the first day of your missed period, EVERY TIME. The only difference is, your either waiting and hoping for a positive result, or your waiting and dreading a positive result.
    I have a friend who was pregnant with identical twins, one died at 16 weeks but since they were sharing a sac, the doctors couldn’t do anything about it. She had to carry that baby until she delivered the one that lived, then she had to give birth to both of them. Are you saying that the one that died wasn’t her baby? It had the EXACT DNA of the one that lived, that one was a baby. She goes every day thinking about that baby girl who would look exactly like the daughter that lived. She has to tell her daughter some day that she lost a sister.
    3. You pro-choicer’s claim that a woman is the one who should decided whether she gives birth to this tiny human being, because it may be an inconvenience to her. Who gave her that right? God? As he is the one that made her female? Wouldn’t that be the same God that created the life she wants to kill?
    4. If she doesn’t want a child… make sure it doesn’t happen. Use protection! Pills, condoms, spermicide, whatever it takes– (OMG including maybe not having sex!!!) Prevent it, so you don’t have to make that decision.
    I really don’t care what anyone says, if after seeing a baby (even if only partially formed) on an ultrasound, seeing the heart beating, etc. of this tiny piece of you, you can still kill it, You are nothing but a cold blooded killer.
    That is a piece of you. Your blood in it’s veins, your DNA. You created this child, now deal for a few months and give it up for adoption. No one is saying you have to deal with it for the rest of your life.
    A few years ago I had to do a college report on a controversial subject, I chose abortion. If you could see the things I saw, read the things I read, no one would do it. Go to Google and look up abortion… it’s horrendous. Try to find some sites with Pictures, like a baby’s skull smashed in to fit through the birth canal without causing the “mother” too much pain. I mean really, if a person is already born and you make it’s heart stop, it’s murder, you’ve killed them. So why is it any different when the child is unborn? You are still stopping a heartbeat, brainwaves, killing a nervous system (yes maybe still developing, but it’s there). It has all of the DNA of a human… so how can you say it’s not human, just becuase in the beginning it looks like a shrimp, means it’s not alive? That’s the way you looked once too. You can’t take something that isn’t “living” and all of a sudden “oh it’s born, it’s alive now,” or even for those of you who only think early abortions are ok, either it’s a living thing or it isn’t. My computer isn’t all of a sudden going to come to life just because it’s past a certain # of weeks old. You can’t have things both ways, it’s either a living growing creature (in this case human) or it’s not. and we all know, it’s deffinitely growing, forming, heart beating, LIVING, PERSON. Too small to have a voice of it’s own, that’s why us pro-lifer’s are here. To make sure those tiny, innocent babies get a voice since you pro-choicer’s don’t think they need one.

  83. Also:
    Norma McCorvey, the ‘Jane Roe’ of Roe v. Wade’s conversion caused shockwaves in the pro-abortion movement.

    McCovery now runs a ministry called ‘Roe No More.’ In June 2003 she even dared to file a motion to re-open her case and overturn the 1973 ruling. Though her legal maneuver was unsuccessful, she continues working one-on-one to point individuals back to the truth—that God established the sanctity of life in Genesis.

    Commenting on the 1992 court decision to remove ‘under God’ from the US pledge of allegiance, McCorvey shows why it is so important for society to go back to Genesis:

    ‘In many ways, this day reminds me of another dark day in our history, namely, January 22, 1973, when in a 7-2 decision, the Supreme Court decided that it was the constitutional right of women to abort their children in uteri. At the time, I believed that it was right—but I did not know what I was doing … . But by the power of God, by the power of His Word, I was able to free myself of the belief that we ourselves are gods, and that we alone can decide the fate of ourselves and our children. I am living proof that this is not true and will never be true.

    ‘If we allow decisions like Roe v. Wade and the recent San Francisco decision to go unnoticed, we too, will be responsible for the demise of America. … I return to Scripture as a source of strength: in Genesis, He writes that God is the Creator of all things from conception until natural death. He also instructed us to go forth and multiply, to teach our children, and to glorify His name, for it is through Him that we have eternal life.’1

  84. People should have the right to do as they please. If you want an abortion then they should be able to get one. If you don’t like abortion then don’t get an abortion. No one has the authority to decide for other people. They can only decide for themselves.

  85. If we continued with that line of thought then we should allow a wife to kill her hubby. He’s her hubby! She should be allowed to kill him if she wants. If you dont want to kill your husband don’t, but dont stop my right to kill mine. Wait! A fetus isn’t a human and a hubby is! Now as discussed, we know that’s not true and unscientific. The difference between a human and a fetus is one is wanted and the other isn’t. But it’s my right to choose! Well then it’s my right to choose to kill my husband. Ludicrous? Ya, and completely unrealistic. Find a new argument because a wave of change is coming and women are going back to true feminism. We dont have to be men to be validated. We should be revered for our ability to carry a child and supported in every way until delivery! I am proud my body and what makes me different than a man. I am proud of my emotions and my period and my breasts. And I am AMAZED that I can nourish a human until it is born. If I were raped, if I were carrying a child with Downs than I would not blame that child for the harmful act of a man or kill my baby because it has a disability, I would demand every kind of help from MAN and WOMAN bring this child into the world and give it to the endless line of families waiting to adopt ANY child. Pro- choice arguments these days are complete and utter BS!!!!

  86. You are so out of touch with reality that I can’t believe it! I’m going to leave your post up here, despite how utterly ridiculous it is, so that people can come to their own conclusions about the pseudo-pro-life movement.

  87. I read half of this thread, but the pro-life arguments began to get a bit tiresome so I skipped to the end. Until then I had not yet seen this issue addressed, pardon me if it has been.

    The thing that always seems to baffle me is that the right-winger, military-wife regime seems to ignore the fact that while they wish to make abortion illegal, and thus force every woman, regardless of whether or not they share the same beliefs in God etc, to adhere to their idea of reality (as obtuse as it is) they seem to never have a solution to the growing amount of unwanted pregnancies other than abstinence!

    Clinics are closing in Africa daily because of loss of funding from American governmental programs that have decided in their infinite, godly wisdom that women and men with AIDS should simply stop having sex. If these clinics refuse to promote such drivel then they are denied funding and closed. The Bush administration refuses to provide proper contraception in these clinics to teach women in Africa to regain control of their bodies. Most men in Africa refuse to use condoms despite the fact that they may knowingly transmit AIDS to their partners or have that act result in an unwanted pregnancy. The woman of Africa do not have access to abortion, thus hundreds of thousands of children are born with HIV and eventually lose their parents and end up in orphanages that cannot sustain them. This is the kind of thing that results from such ignorance.

    Meanwhile, in the USA, girls are getting pregnant younger and younger, in part thanks to the same antiquated ideas of reproduction. I guess I don’t understand how people care more about the “potential life” than they do about the full grown capable, and VIABLE human being dealing with the pregnancy. Is it not hypocritical to complain that the unborn need rights to protect them from harm, yet you would take away the basic human rights of the pregnant woman in order to provide them those rights. Are you in a sense saying that the woman does not deserve rights because she did not refrain from sex? And will she not simply seek out other methods out of desperation and put her life in danger, ultimately ending the life of the embryo/fetus as well as her own? It is well known by observing other prohibition phenomena such as bootlegging, that the prohibition of abortion most certainly will NOT end it, but rather create a dangerous black market of non-clinical, primitive practices controlled by a medical mafia. (Analogy not any more extreme than comparing a woman getting an abortion to Hitler)

    Before anyone asks, I have had an abortion. I was 19 and my boyfriend at the time practically killed me driving me to the clinic going 100 miles an hour. I did not go through with it that day because I wanted the decision to be mine. Afterall what kind of feminist would I be if I allowed a man to dictate what I would do with my body even if it was FOR abortion. I did go back a week later and I do not regret it to this day. NOW, I am 8 weeks pregnant and I am keeping this one because I am now in a stable situation to provide the very best for a child. I do not believe in God, I believe in science and I believe that the neo-con attitude towards the sacredness of life will eventually cause population inflation and raping of the environment to the extent that all life on this planet will become non-existent. A tremendous irony that no one will have the opportunity to appreciate.

  88. Whatever happened to the adoption option. Give the unborn the right to live! If your not ready for a pregnancy than abstinance is a must. People need to learn self-control and act more responsible about their life and others. The right to concieve is a God given gift. Do you realize how many eggs are fertilized a year? We are talking in the 500,000+ and why is it that only some of those get inplanted? They are implanted because God says so. So many people out there don’t get that blessing and people like to waste it and just get rid of it. Give a childless couple a baby! I have remained barren myself for 17 years now and by some miracle I am pregnant! I am enjoying every single minute of it! Just when I was thinking of adopting I got pregnant. Imagine that!

  89. Keri, Why didn’t you adopt 17 years ago when you found out you were “barren”? It is that important to have a child of your own rather than adopt – is adoption the absolute last option? Well, then I must ask you why you insist that the adoption option for pregnant women is better than abortion. It seems to me that most women are like you and hold out to bring another child into the world rather than adopt. Meanwhile, the children who are given up for adoption remain in the system for their adolescent lives. Why are unborn children more important than the children who need homes all across the world. Unfortunately for these children, through the advance of In vitro fertilization, adoption rates have plummeted. More people want their own children and are given the opportunity using this method. I have to ask about your involvement of God in this issue as well. It is God’s will that these eggs are fertilized? One could also argue that God did not want these people to have children of their own. Maybe he had chosen them to save a child from the system, but they went against God and turned to science. Quite a contradiction if you ask me. Christians are so quick to judge others for playing God or putting faith in science, when they themselves utilize science time and time again, but explain it away as Gods will when it suits them.

    I obviously do not share your views about abstinence. I have made my case, but you seem to be yet another pro-abstinence person who is so naive and idealistic to demand certain actions of others despite the reality of the fact that they will not adhere to your beliefs. Then you refuse to face this reality and instead of fixing a problem, you worsen it. I suggest you read the “Allegory of the Cave” by Plato. I suggest this knowing that it is highly improbable that you would ever pick it up. It was written before the Bible.

  90. And BTW…Kali is full of shit. I have a Master’s in English Literature and even I know that time of death is not called after the heart stops beating. All I had to do was Wiki to confirm this. This is an extremely antiquated idea in the world of medicine since machines may keep a person biologically alive though their brains are dead. Death these days is proclaimed when the brain ceases to function or an EEG no longer shows any brain activity or if attempts to resuscitate are unsuccessful. If what you said was true, then every person who was ever resuscitated must have magically come back from the dead. I highly doubt that you have any sort of medical degree. If you do, I would like the hospital name where you practice, or your exact degree from the institution you went to.

  91. Jenna, the reason why I did’nt adopt back then was because I had suffered a bad illness that had me taking some pretty toxic medicines to contol my disease and put it into remission. I had suffered for years and I was originally told not to concieve because of the high risk of birth defects. After I was healthy and tried to concieve I was unable to. The doctor said that it was most likely because of my Meds. And believe me even this pregnancy is upsetting to an extent because I am worried if it will be healthy enough. According to my ultasound he is healthy. But anyway you do have a point about the orphanages out there. They are full of older children who need homes. Everyone seems to just want babies and I think that is really sad. But sitting here thinking about how many abortions occur and how many children are orphaned, just comes to show that we all need to become more responsible in what we do. I’m not trying to judge anyone. I just want some people to just put a little more thought into all of this. Also think of this; what if your parents did’nt want you and you were aborted. YOU would’nt be here.

  92. Keri, I am truly sorry that you went through difficult times and am happy for you that you were able to finally conceive. I definitely agree that people should be responsible with sex and their bodies. But I don’t believe that just because someone was careless, or made a mistake, that that person should be punished or disallowed the the right to terminate that pregnancy. Just like because my low dose birth control failed me, I don’t think that I should have been denied the right to abortion. If you are saying that people need to be more responsible, but that they should still have the right to make choices regarding their health and well-being in the event that they “screw up” then I agree with you. I don’t believe that it is realistic, however, to expect a grown person who holds no religious beliefs that support “waiting”, or those that do as a matter of fact, to abstain from sex as a solution to abortion and STIs. The only way to help these people to be more responsible is to provide them with the education in sex and the contraceptives to aid them in being more responsible when instinct kicks in. I see humans as another a species on this planet that has a natural instinct to reproduce. Just because we have logic and reason does not mean that we can suppress the natural instinct to reproduce. That is what all living things on the planet do.

    And if my parents didn’t want me? I could argue with you that they didn’t and might not have had me had they had the legal right back then, but I’m not afraid of non-existence. If I never existed, well, I wouldn’t know the difference and neither would my parents. If I didn’t exist my husband would have married another and a few people’s lives would be a little different, but again, no one would know the better. That is my honest response.

  93. Please don’t think I am entirely pro-abstinance. I know something like that can be difficult. But it should be taught to very young women just for their overall safety and yes proper education is warrented especially in the young. I am not intending to say that everyone is perfect, yes we are human and it’s a natural thing in human behavior. I am sorry if you got the wrong message; or I did’nt explain myself further. To tell you the truth I think maybe this opinion of mine is a bit emotionally charged due to my situation. Please forgive me; I did’nt mean to offend. But I’m glad to see that you agree about proper education and I hope others see it to.

  94. All of you: shut up

    Your arguments (pro- and anti-choice) are irrelevant because they hinge solely on semantics and philosophy. Neither argument is right and neither is wrong. You’re like monkeys throwing feces at the zoo. You’ll never agree so just quiet down and go away.

  95. You know what? I have been following this for a quite some time, and I’d like to applaud some of you for your marvelous theatrics. It’s absolutely amazing to me how obstinate you people can be on either side of this matter. I read on and on hoping to get to some shred of intelligent conversation, but all I find here is a sad bunch of women who spend their sad lives being as contrary as possible to one another. So what if someone doesn’t agree with you? You’re not going to change the world with your over-charged extremist statements, none of you. This would be a much, MUCH more interesting blog if people could accept one another’s views whether or not they necessarily agreed and responded maturely with a logical and applicable argument.

    In my personal opinion, it is obvious that the woman has the choice (nobody else does, that’s for sure) as to whether she will carry a child to term. I feel that abortion is a choice, but I also feel that it is a bad choice. Maybe that is what so many of you insane pro-lifers have been struggling to get across. It’s a damn selfish choice, but it’s one that even if abortion became illegal would still exist. It has always existed. So why are you arguing over whether a woman has the choice?? Yes, politicsnpoetry, as you so annoyingly feel the need to remind us all over and over again “a woman has the power to grant a fetus life if she so chooses. It is her choice and hers alone. It is her right and her responsibility, not yours, not the state’s, not her doctor’s, no one else’s but hers.”
    “We are discussing women’s reproductive freedom as a human right.” Sure, a woman can slut around, get pregnant, kill “a potential” a human being, and move on with her life. She has that right. Do I agree with that behavior, no. Does that give me a right to control her choice in any way? No. Do I believe that a government should condone the sort of value system that that behavior portrays? No. It’s a sad situation when something like that becomes a norm. I am pro-choice and pro-life because I think that it is an important decision that a woman has a right to make, but I also think that some woman are in no capacity to take into account the permanency of that decision or the effect that it will have upon their life.

    So whether she’s irresponsibly engaging in sexual acts or raped, it’s her choice what she will do with the results of that and it’s one that she must be ready to make. It’s not a decision that should be made out of fear or selfishness, and I think that is where it is our duty as a society to intervene. These women do not need someone to pressure them one way or another, they need someone to help them understand the pro’s and con’s of the choice. More needs to be done before an abortion is followed through with, it need not necessarily be unlegalized, but more needs to be done to make sure that it is done with great importance and not just as an escape plan.

    I have no intention of humoring the mindless banter which I am certain this will undoubtedly unfold after you’ve analyzed every word of this, I just felt the need to tell all of you how ashamed I am of the extremism and lack of intellect I found here. I am certain many of you are above this, at least I would hope.

    Ending even a potential life has broken many a heart and wounded many a woman.

  96. Oh, btw, there are definitely some very intelligent posts here, and I did not mean to offend anyone who has actually made an effective point for either argument. There’s just such an overwhelming amount of drivel that it was what I addressed.

  97. It’s nobody’s business honestly. If a woman wants to kill her child, it’s not the religious groupies’ business, or the government’s business. It’s her own. So there should not be a debate on whether abortion is right or wrong, but action should be taken so a woman is presented with all the facts of not only what happens or could happen to her, but her unborn child. Everyone needs to stay the heck out of it otherwise. If you take away a woman’s right to an abortion, she’s going to find a way to self-abort and that’s going to lead to the mother’s death or severe health complications. People are always going to do what they will do and that’s their business, why not make it safe? I’m sure that it would be a much bigger issue for thousands of mothers to self-abort and die or become very ill, when there is the technology giving a safe way to abort. Personally, I would never, ever abort my own child. However, I have different life circumstances than others and if someone close to me was to get an abortion, I would not judge them, simply because it’s not my body, it’s not my baby, it’s not my concern and they have different life circumstances that I may not fully understand.
    Seriously, people really need to learn to let people do what people will do, but make it safe.

  98. OK…Like many others it seems, I too stumbled upon this blog after Googling “human fetus development 11 weeks” I was looking for images, and this image came up on the first page, as well as this blog.
    I was looking for these images, as my 17 yr old (18 in Oct.)daughter is now exactly 11 weeks and 2 days pregnant; she went for her first ultrasound today.
    Now then, to explain why I’m even commenting, I’ll have to give you a bit of history.
    My mother became pregnant with me and my identical twin sister when she was only 15 yrs old. She, herself did not believe in abortion, and back in 1970, I don’t even know if that would have been an option, but I highly doubt it.
    She was FORCED, by my grandmother, her mother, to give me up for adoption. She was told that if she planned on keeping me (my twin was stillborn..God’s plan I guess) that she would be forbidden to see my father ever again. At the time, my grandmother already had 5 children, including my mother, was raising them all by herself on a VERY meager income by working, and I suppose, decided that my mother would ‘ruin’ her life if she chose to keep me. I also suppose that she thought that having yet another mouth to feed and clothe would put her deeper into poverty.
    I was, at the age of 4 months old, adopted by a couple that already had 3 healthy, thriving boys. They were given a full home study by the Chidren’s Aid, and were approved to adopt a child. My parents had decided NOT to try to have another one, wanted a girl very badly, so adopted me, instead.
    Ok…now, here’s where things get sticky, as far as all you out there that think adoption is the ‘cure-all’ for women/girls who have unwanted pregnancies. (and BTW, my mother VERY MUCH wanted to keep me, but was deeply intimidated by my grandmother..and let’s face it..in order to understand the full implications of that intimidation you’d have to have known my gramma! LOL *she says with tongue in cheek*).
    I grew up in a VERY abusive and dysfunctional family. My mother (adoptive, of course) let me know from the time I was able to grasp the concept, that I was ADOPTED (as if it was some sort of dreadful disease) and that I was not “really” their child. It was a litany that was to be repeated to me over and over as I grew up. She mentally, emotionally and physically abused me. Most of this went on behind my father’s back. From the time I was 4 years old, my older adoptive brothers sexually abused me. I kept silent all through the years growing up, because it was made VERY clear to me by my adoptive mother that I had been LUCKY to have been adopted by them, and I was a ‘liar’, a ‘trouble-maker’, ‘the outsider’..and that I could be ‘sent back’ to the Children’s Aid at ANY time, to live out my days in their care, and thrown to the streets at age 18 with nothing but the clothes on my back. Needless to say, I kept quiet until many, many yrs later. I left home at age 13, b/c my mother told my father ‘either she goes or I go’..so..I went.
    Annnyywayyy…that’s my story about adoption not being the ‘cure-all’…but it doesn’t end there..oh no…
    When I was 18, I had been on the birth control pill for 3 yrs. The first time I slept with my oldest daughter’s father…I became pregnant. Not that I hadn’t been sexually active before then, I had. BUT…I guess it was all part of God’s great plan that at THAT particular copulation, it was time for a baby to become part of my life.
    I had a very close friend who had, at the time, a two year old son. She herself had gotten pregnant at the age of 16 and tried to talk me into getting an abortion..told me how my life would change..how difficult life is with a child..how financially draining, as well as emotionally demanding, and physically tiring it was.
    A part of me hoped and prayed I would mis-carry. I was young, I had broken up with the father just before I found out I was pregnant, I was terrified of what my life would become should that baby survive. Due to my own experience, adoption was TOTALLY out of the question!! There was no way in HELL I wanted to risk sending my baby off to people who were actually “approved” by the Children’s Aid (unbeknownst to them of course), only to be later abused in life.
    So I waited…and I prayed..and I waited..and hoped. And every day, my daughter grew inside me. I could NOT bring myself to have an abortion, even though I had met an older woman about a year before who very cavalierly told me of her THREE abortions *gasp* I sat on the fence over the whole situation until I was about 4 months along, all the while, reading up on pregnancy and the development of my baby and eating properly, aside from a one-night bender with a bottle of wine that, in hindsight was an attempt at spontaneous abortion.
    Well..now..here we are…my daughter is 17 and pregnant. She has a life-long disorder (no, not caused by my one-night bender, it’s genetic) and has to take meds for it for the rest of her life.
    She didn’t tell me she was pregnant. I guessed, b/c she had missed just one (I thought) of her periods, and I suggested she get a pregnancy test, as we knew her pregnancies had to be very well planned, and very closely monitored.
    As it turns out, she is 11 weeks along, and may have already unwittingly harmed her baby with the medications she’s on.
    She and I (before we found out what the medications she’s on would do to a fetus) discussed abortion, because neither of us, nor her long-time boyfriend believe it is fair to anyone..her, or a baby to bring into a world a SEVERELY physically or mentally disabled child.
    My daughter deals with mental illness already and to bring a child with severe disabilities into the world would aggravate her already shaky stability.
    That being said, we also discussed the option of her keeping the baby. However..I left the decision UP TO HER. No matter HOW much I would love to have a grandchild, (I’m only 36, so my biological clock still ticks, even though I had my tubes tied after my 3rd daughter was born..everyone knows how wonderful it is to have a baby around…I don’t care WHO you are…babies are the BOMB! (^-^) …)
    But I digress…I left the decision up to MY DAUGHTER…HER body, HER choice. We discussed that she would have to live with whatever choice she made, to abort or to keep the baby FOR THE REST OF HER LIFE. Regardless of her decision, I would support her all the way.
    That all being said, I knew, deep down, she was bonding with that baby, as she had been ‘talking’ to it, from the moment she suspected she was pregnant.
    She has, of course, decided to keep the baby, and her first ultrasound today came back, and so far, so good!
    Am I thrilled that she is only a baby, now due to have a baby of her own? Of course not. She will have to face, (aw will I, as she will be living with me for quite some time) awesome financial burden, emotional roller-coasters, physically taxing her body because she is so young, having a baby among all the other hardships. But she will also know the unbounding love a mother has for her child. The sweet scent of a sleeping baby. The fierce protectiveness, and unbreakable bond a mother has with her child. I could go on and on….but I fear I’ve rambled enough.
    I am not pro or anti anything. I think every woman/girl’s situation is unique. There is no RIGHT or WRONG time to have a baby, but it IS right to take responsibility for ones’ actions.
    Whether that be to live with the guilt/regret/etc of an abortion, or to raise a child no matter the fall-out of ones’ life that that choice causes.
    I don’t think personally attacking anyone because of their opinion or belief system benefits ANYONE, no matter WHAT the topic.
    So..there you have it..my story, and my opinion, if one could call it that 😉
    P.S. When I was 25, I found my birth parents. It turned out, my mother turned 16 just 3 days after my sister and I were born, and married my father when she was 18 and had my 3 brothers. She lived with a void in her life for 25 years, until we found each other. She lived with the regret, the guilt, and the loss of loving me so deeply yet unable to know who or where I was. So basically..there are now 2 generations that will be on this earth because she could not or would not have an abortion.
    Be good to one another folks..we’re all human..we all speak out of turn once in awhile..and as someone said..I have no idea who it was…to err is human..to forgive..divine 🙂

  99. Hi, I am a midwife, a mother and currently working in Afghanistan. Also, I have lived and worked in Africa for years. Trust me, the measures a woman will go to to terminate a pregnancy she did not choose are amazing, including suicide. I have seen the result of women being forced to have children they don’t want. Unwanted children in these contexts often starve, and may live horrible, terrible lives. Wanted, planned children are loved. Abortion used as birth control because the mother can’t be bothered to be responsible about her own sexuality, i think, is unforgivable. Mainly to herself as abortion does have physiological and often times psychological consequences.

    Abortion because the pregnancy was genuinely out of her control is a means for the woman to control something that was otherwise not. Making sure these woman have safe options is crucial. Their lives may have been hellish enough.

    On a personal note, I gave my son up for adoption at birth 10 years ago in an open and warm way. In large part because I did not think I could emotionally handle an abortion. If I had been raped at any time over the subsequent 10 years- I don’t think I could have emotionally handled giving another child up for adoption- or raising it. I think GOd I am from a country, that until now, I still have the right to make a safe choice. I am 8 weeks pregnant as I write this. My husband and I are thrilled. We love her or him with all our hearts. We chose to be parents.

  100. So the topic is Women’s reproductive freedom as a human right? Interesting. I personally oppose abortion. However, I realize that the world is full of irresponsible women, who neglect to take the proper precautions for preventing pregnancy, and need an easy way out. I also understand that there are women and girls who are raped, and become pregnant as a result. So as an alternative to abortion, how about we take some better PREVENTATIVE measures. Would it go against a woman’s reproductive freedom to start requiring all females of reproductive age to be on some form of birth control? Depo shots would be the easiest. From what I’ve read, there are little, to no long term effects from being on birth control for long periods of time. When a woman is ready to get pregnant, they simply stop having the injections. True, their cycle can take 6 months to 1 year to regulate itself to allow her to get pregnant. By ensuring that everyone has access to reliable birth control, we can practically eliminate the need for abortion. Young girls who are raped will no longer have to deal with the possiblity of becoming pregnant as a result. Teenagers, college age women won’t have to worry about pressures from parents, friends, and school, if they become pregnant. Why is it that no one ever thinks about the cause, and do something to stop it there? Is it easier to have an abortion than to take the appropriate steps to prevent pregnancy in the first place? I agree there will be some women who intentionally get pregnant, then due to health concerns might require abortions. But why are we always looking to solve a problem after the fact? Let’s work towards preventing the pregnancy. Besides, then you can have all the sex you want, and isn’t that what a “Woman’s Reproductive Freedom” is all about? Both sides need to be more open. Let’s work towards solving the actual problem (unwanted pregnancies) rather than call each other names. We just have to admit that there’s always more than one way to reach the same end.

  101. Good grief, let it go already…

    Yes, it’s women’s reproductive freedom we’re talking about. And if you don’t like the topic, you can leave. This is my blog and I’ll say what I damned well please!

  102. But Berlynn — as you well know, women’s bodies need to be centrally controlled. They’re a threat, I tell you, a threat. They’re in danger of exploding with babies all over the place unless someone wiser takes command of the pathetic, ignorant women of the world and immunizes them at once against that worst of all possible diseases — being female.

    Gee, Berlynn. Didn’t you get that memo?

  103. why do you all want to judge people so much it is the choice of who ever for what reson none of you have the right to say do this do that why are you all so eeeemmm involved on trying to force your apinions and to judge oyhter people when you dont know they situation or life or back growend you should all get a life and move on lozes

  104. Pingback: Connecting the dots « Politics’n'Poetry

  105. OH MY!!! I just happen to be looking up aborted 10 wk old fetus and came across this site..How discouraging!! There are some very valid statements and some that are so far out there…I am 40 yrs old and at the age of 17 became pregnet.. I was shocked, stunned, scared, and so many other things, that I can not even discribe..I now have three wonderful children..but at 17 deciced at 10 wks to have an abortion..and to this day that child is still on my mind…I am very much on the fence with abortion…I can give you my opionion of both sides of that fence..but again it is my OPIONON!! and like assholes well each have our own thoughts on this subject…and yes very early in a pregnecy you can see that tiny heart beat…do I think abortion is wrong YES, do I feel that everyone has to make there own personal decision YES…It is very sad to see grown women talk down to each, and act like children…I regret everyday the choice I made..but I have to deal with it…in my eyes I have 4 children, and my first is waiting in Gods arms for me to hopefully be able to see one day…I feel if abortion is going to be legal than before a women goes through with it she should see an untrasound of that small being growing inside of her….If I would have had that chance I would have never of went through with the abortion….I say lets agree to disagree….why call names, or point figures..that does nothing to help anyone….
    A person should think before speaking, and realize we are all different, and there is only one judge and that is not any of us on this earth…that is God….
    May you all be touched with happiness and not such bitterness as I have read tonight….

  106. Wow! That’s some fence you’re on! You might want to find a good feminist counsellor to help you with your issues. And, in case you didn’t know, Christianity is not embraced by the entire world…

  107. I’m pro-choice because I believe no one has the right to tell a woman what she can or cannot (or should or should not) do with her very own pink bits, what she grew all by herself. I believe no one has the right to deny elective medical surgery to healthy, reasonable people, for any reason.

    I also believe abortion is wrong. But, to butcher a phrase, I will defend to the death a woman’s right to choose it. And, as a side note, I believe abortion is wrong *for me*. I would never presume to tell a woman that abortion is wrong for her; that is a decision only she can make.

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